EBB 319 – Exploring Love and Intimacy in Birth with Debra Pascali-Bonaro, Founder of Orgasmic Birth

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:00:00:

Hi, everyone. On today’s podcast, we’re going to talk with Debra Pascali-Bonaro about love and intimacy in birth. Welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. My name is Rebecca Dekker, and I’m a nurse with my PhD and the founder of Evidence Based Birth®. Join me each week as we work together to get evidence-based information into the hands of families and professionals around the world. As a reminder, this information is not medical advice. See ebbirth.com/disclaimer for more details. Hi everyone, and welcome to today’s episode of the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. 

Before we get started, I have some exciting news for you. Starting this week you can join the Evidence Based Birth® pro membership for 30-days for free. Get started by going to ebbirth.com/membership, and in your free month you will have unlimited access to all of EBB’s cutting edge continuing education courses, a library full of printer-friendly PDFs, an archive of monthly trainings on hot topics, and much more. Also, if you decide to stay with EBB after your free trial ends you automatically receive 20% off. Plus when you sign-up for your free trial you’ll receive a bonus recording just for Pro members all about the evidence on the flu shot in pregnancy. We have a really exciting month lined up for our Pro members and we’re so excited that so many people are going to be able to enjoy these resources for free this July. So don’t miss this opportunity. Go to ebbirth.com/membership and I hope to see you at our live training this month, and with that I’m excited to introduce our honored guest for today’s podcast.

We’re joined today by Debra Pascali-Bonaro, a world-renowned inspirational speaker, podcaster, filmmaker, doula trainer, childbirth educator, and author. Debra’s podcast, Orgasmic Birth, and her award-winning documentary, Orgasmic Birth: The Best-Kept Secret, opens your eyes to secrets for more love and intimacy in birth and parenting. Debra’s passion comes from her years as a Lamaze International childbirth educator and a birth and postpartum doula trainer with DONA International, where she has worked with women, men, birthing families, midwives, nurses, doulas, and physicians in more than 40 countries, bringing comfort, love, and pleasure to birth and life. Debra is also a mother, a grandmother, and a featured expert in parenting journals and media around the world. And we are honored to have Debra here on the podcast. Debra, welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:01:38:

Thank you so much for that intro. And I have to say it is such an honor and a pleasure to be here.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:01:45:

And Debra, you have a very like storied career in the birth world. You’ve been doing a lot of work and you’ve touched countless lives. I was wondering if you could take us back towards the beginning and how you journeyed into the world of childbirth education and doula training.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:02:03:

Oh, thank you for that question, because I feel really blessed that I have to credit my great grandmother and grandmother. And I’m old enough that when I was a little girl, I had a lot of time with my several of my great grandmas. And they all birthed at home because that’s what you did in the early 1900s. And I loved I think when other people listen to other bedtime stories, I would say, tell me birth stories. And they had these beautiful stories of kind of walking. Some of them were working the earth and farming. Others were in New York City. One lived in Harlem. And they talked about walking and moving and they talked about challenge. They talked about intensity and they talked about great joy and love. So there was no fear or pain that really stood out in their stories. And I think that having that, set me on a path. So by the time I was ready to birth my own children, I really was surprised that so much had changed. Right. And now hospital birth was the norm. 

And so it set me on a quest to really investigate what had we lost, what had we gained and what did I really want? And I was birthing my first child in Montreal, Canada, and Canada at that time in 1981 had lost their midwives. And there was no option for home or birth center birth. So I really went deep on a quest because I wanted what my family had. And it really took me to be an incredible advocate for having a birth where I could move and birth upright and do the things that the elders and ancestors had done. And after my birth, it set me on a path to say, it shouldn’t be this hard. And what about people that don’t have these stories from their family, where they’ve been lost or their family didn’t have those opportunities? So that’s what really began me to become a child-birth educator. And I was really doing like being a doula before the word doula. So it was so funny because I would be asked to go to births with people in my class. And I was so honored because I thought, wow, I get to go to birth and not be the one laboring like, this is really great. And then it was in 1987, I actually read an article about a doula and had this kind of light bulb effect that I’m a doula and set me on that path. I was really blessed to meet Penny Simkin, Marshall Klaus, Dr. John Kennell, Phyllis Klaus, Annie Kennedy, the founders of DONA International and be at the very first meeting of DONA. And by joining them, kind of all the rest kind of unfolded. So it’s been a long journey, but I really believe it started with bedtime stories as birth stories as a little girl.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:05:15:

I love that. And thank you for sharing about your birth in Canada. I hadn’t realized that. So were you able to get the birth that you wanted? I don’t think many people realize that midwifery was only recently brought back to parts of Canada that had been made basically illegal for there’s no legal path for midwives for many years. So how did you get the birth that you wanted to have?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:05:37:

It was a long and hard journey because I did find some midwives that were like underground and I pleaded with them to, you know, be with me at home and they felt they would be up for prosecution. So they couldn’t. So I started interviewing OBs and I know for a lot of people that sounds funny, but I felt it was my body, my birth. And I wanted someone that would agree to respect my choices that I had grown to want from my own family. And I actually wasn’t getting a very good reception. People were not thrilled that I wanted to do an interview before I’d lay down and put my legs in stirrups. And many people just wanted me to trust them, even said things like, you know, honey, we’ll take care of you. And I was like, don’t call me honey. And you know, I just want a lifeguard. I want someone there in case, but I think I’ve got this, you know? And so I really didn’t have a provider I felt good about for quite some time. But I was a student at McGill University and I had a brainstorm one morning that there were all these students at McGill that maybe hadn’t been indoctrinated into the system yet. 

So I went to McGill cafeteria at the med school at lunchtime and yelled out, is there anybody here who hasn’t seen a birth yet? I was about six months pregnant. And they all laughed at me and said, I think you mean you want someone who knows a lot about birth. And I said, no, because I think you’re indoctrinated into a system that’s not really respecting and honoring everyone’s choice. And so a young resident came up to me and he said, I think they’re right, but I really haven’t seen a birth. And I said, you’re perfect. We’ll learn together. And so luckily his preceptor agreed and we were really able to work together where he could listen to what I wanted. And his preceptor was willing to say, okay, this is different than the births that we’re seeing currently in hospital, but we’re going to support you unless you need extra care. And that’s really what I wanted. I said, I want your care and wisdom. Should myself or my baby need more care, but if we’re doing well, please just be there and smile and tell me I’m doing good and be there to catch the baby. And so I had a very powerful birth. And I really am grateful that they were willing to listen and honor my choices and what I knew from my family.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:08:11:

Was this a family practice resident or an OB/GYN resident?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:08:15:

Family practice resident.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:08:18:

Okay. Yeah. That’s interesting. You know, my sister’s a family practice doctor, and I know they often tend to be more open to holistic ways of birthing. So that’s that’s really I think that’s the most unique story I’ve ever heard about finding a provider by going into a med school cafeteria and just like shouting for a doctor who’s never attended a birth. That is very innovative and definitely really impressed. So moving on to love and intimacy and your book and your podcast, your website, they’re all titled Orgasmic Birth, which for some people might be a little off-putting or even shocking. So can you tell us kind of what led to the use of the word orgasmic in birth? Like what, what’s going on with that?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:09:05:

Yeah, and I know, and I, you know, I always wish I could hear people’s thoughts. What’s the first thing that comes to mind when you hear orgasmic birth, right? It can take you in all different directions. But I do have to give credit that the first time I heard orgasmic birth, it really was from midwife Ina May Gaskin. And she had been writing and teaching a lot about the connection between birth and intimacy and sexuality. And I heard her say orgasmic birth, and it kind of lit up in my mind. And I knew from her, and I knew from at that point being a doula and attending so many births, that there were all these elements of joy and love and connection and bliss, along with challenge and fear and for some pain. But we weren’t giving voice to the fullness, right? We often were just talking about pain and fear. And not talking about joy and love and intimacy. So for me, orgasmic birth really started to represent all the other elements that exist in birth that are joyful, that are pleasurable, that can be ecstatic and orgasmic as a heightened physical and emotional experience. 

But I also learned soon that there were many people who experienced what they would call a birthgasm. Literally, for many people, the biggest orgasm of their life, these waves of just incredible ecstasy at some point during labor and birth, and what I learned from so many people that had that experience is they never told anyone. They didn’t tell many of them their partners, their husbands, their best friends, their family members, and they certainly didn’t tap their provider on the shoulder and say, hey, guess what just happened? So thus the title, Orgasmic Birth: The Best-Kept Secret, is that so many people have some element of joy and love, but often don’t give voice. And I want to say it’s a small percentage of all those that birth that are experiencing birthgasm, but I don’t think anyone should feel ashamed if their body at this time of birth gave them these incredible waves of pleasure. And I felt like so many people that had a birthgasm had a lot of shame around it and thanked me for using a term that could honor this fullness of birth. So it really is kind of a term that just kept kind of growing on me as I was talking to people, as I was teaching workshops. And I do have to tell you, it wasn’t the first title I was going to call the documentary because I did worry that it was so bold and it needs an explanation for some people. And I thought maybe the film should have a softer title and then we can take you there. But that’s a funny story because I think people will laugh. 

My initial title for the film was An Ordinary Miracle. And I think if we had made that film, right, where would it be? In a drawer somewhere today and never have been seen. And I was actually in New York City at a pitch session where they invited new filmmakers to meet with the heads of HBO and Starz and all the networks to pitch your idea and get feedback. And it was in that session that I said An Ordinary Miracle. And they didn’t even give me the 10 minutes I was entitled. They said, you can sit down with the title like that. We don’t need to have anymore. No one needs to see it. And so I quickly yelled out Ecstatic Birth. And they said, that’s not a title that would intrigue anyone at all. And I was just about to sit down and a doula was with me and I had been teaching that day about orgasmic birth. And she kind of pushed me and said, yell out orgasmic birth. You have nothing to lose. So I yelled out orgasmic birth. And the head of HBO said, if you make that film, you’ll catch people’s attention. And he gave me my 10 minutes to talk about the joy and pleasure, and intimacy of birth. So orgasmic birth, I can credit to both Ina May Gaskin and to, at the time, the head of HBO, who really encouraged me to choose a title that would be bold to intrigue people to learn more.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:13:50:

Yeah, that’s true. It is definitely intriguing. What are some of the perhaps misconceptions people have about the concept of orgasmic birth? So you kind of defined what it was. You said only a small percentage of people will experience like the full orgasm experience, but you believe the term can be more broadened to include different types of pleasure and joy?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:14:17:

Correct. Correct.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:14:18:

So what are some of the other misconceptions people might have about this concept?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:14:23:

I think the other thing, and I really, it’s part that troubles me, is that people think that everybody should have a birthgasm if they did it right, or that this should be on their birth plan. And that, please, we don’t need a performance standard in birth. And certainly I wouldn’t want a birthgasm added to a birth plan. I think the majority of people that have had birthgasms were completely unexpected. So it wasn’t people that were trying for it. It was something that just happened. And it kind of makes physiologic sense, right? As the baby’s coming down the birth canal, the clitoral nerves, some people say 8,000 nerves, other people are saying up to 12,000 nerves, are really interfaced in there. So it is possible that just with the different pressure and the sensations that people are feeling, these waves of pleasure. But I don’t want it as that performance standard. So that’s one thing. The other thing is people think it’s only for someone else, that their experience either with the prior birth was very painful or sadly traumatic, or that all they’ve heard are these stories of pain and fear. And they can’t imagine that there could even be moments in labor and birth that are pleasurable. And that I’d like to say, I think is really false. I think we can have challenge or pain as well as pleasure. And that labor and birth brings many sensations, many feelings. And if we open to them, and I believe we can prepare with pleasure, that we can ride these different waves in different ways. So that I think every person can have a birth that’s orgasmic. If you write your own definition of what that means, because I don’t think anybody should define what you’re going to expect in birth for you. I think that should be personal. And I would invite everyone listening to say, if you could write your definition of orgasmic birth and include whatever positive words you like, what would that be? And I think that’s achievable.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:16:40:

So if somebody wanted to incorporate more love, joy, pleasure, into their birth experience, that it’s not just, you know, worrying about the fear of pain and suffering. Can you share some tips or insights on how you could incorporate different strategies to make birth better?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:17:03:

Yeah, I think that’s so important, Rebecca. I think that one, I always say you really need to start a pleasure practice either before you’re pregnant or if you are pregnant, then in pregnancy, because the things that we do every day are going to be easier to incorporate into birth. So I would first encourage everyone to make a long list of what I call simple pleasures. And simple pleasures are, you know, one to three minute pleasures. I hope a few times a week you have time for some longer pleasures, but we know in the middle of labor, it’s going to be hard to have longer pleasures. But if you can do three to five simple ones a day, and that can be anything from like, I love to put on my favorite song and dance wildly for a minute or two in the middle of the day, to, you know, a special cup of tea, to, you know, eye-to-eye time with your partner or even yourself in the mirror, because it begins with us in really loving ourselves. But when you do these and start doing that throughout pregnancy, then you create a list of those that you really enjoyed. And what are the ones you can bring to birth? 

And some of these simple pleasures are things you might even do actually during that contraction or surge, but many of them are what we can do in between, when we have those, you know, three, four, five minutes in between, if we take a moment for a pleasure, we’re going to shift how we’re feeling as we get ready to welcome the next sensation. So my number one thing to prepare to bring in some pleasure and joy is to start experiencing it in pregnancy so that you have like this toolkit, I call it my treasure chest of pleasure tips, to kind of… pull from. And some of these can be more intimate. If you do have a partner that you feel safe with, then add to that things like being touched, kissing, words of love. What are the ways that you really want your partner to be loving you through labor? And what are the ways that you can also be loving yourself and your baby through labor? So it’s not like there’s something new. It’s really just incorporating what I would hope people can do every day into bringing more love into their birth.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:19:32:

That makes sense, because, I think we often neglect ourselves. I mean, in… parenthood and motherhood in general, but also in pregnancy. And I’m bringing back memories of just trying to cope with the symptoms of pregnancy while still trying to do your normal life, your work and caring for other children or elders or whatever it is you’re doing. So you’re talking about just really prioritizing small moments of joy throughout pregnancy and then including that in your birth. So could you share any stories of births you’ve witnessed where you felt like there was just a lot of love and joy in the room and what things contributed to that.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:20:20:

Yeah, I can think of many, but one that came to mind right away, and actually they’re caught some of it in our documentary, Orgasmic Birth, is this couple, Tamara and Simon, and they just really wanted to bring their love to birth. And what I really loved is they really talked about ahead of time in preparing, kind of in this idea of how can we bring our love? How can we bring pleasure? And her knowing that she really wanted intimate touch during labor, and she wanted him to really be there kind of eye-to-eye with her. And, you know, it made me think, well, these are good oxytocin enhancers, right? The oxytocin, as we know, that has to really build and peak after birth. So they were doing a lot of kissing, and she felt that when the surge was really hard, what she wanted was a deep kiss. And that would allow her jaw to open. That would allow her, instead of focusing on this is really hard or maybe claiming it as painful, she would kind of just melt into this luscious kiss from her partner. And it was amazing to see because, like you, it took me back. I didn’t do any of that when I gave birth. It made me think, I wish I had known this or wished I had tried it. And then I even thought, well would I have been able to? 

But according to her, it was like it reframed it into love. She didn’t feel the discomfort because she felt this kissing, this eye contact, this tender stroking, these words of love really reframed it for her. And I remember just like being there watching her and saying, you know, she really wasn’t claiming this as pain. She really felt that pain and pleasure are riding on similar pathways. And she made a focus to say, I’m going to make sure everyone, I’m going to focus on ways of calling in pleasure. And she was one of the early births that I really, I was there. I actually helped film too. But I thought, wow, what a difference in seeing how her birth unfolded for her and how she felt. And since then, I’ve worked with so many people that have taken that approach. And it’s really amazing. And some people worry, well, what if you don’t have a partner or what if you don’t have a partner that for cultural, religious reasons or personal reasons, you don’t want to be that intimate with in birth. 

So I do want to share that I’ve been with other people that have really done that for themselves, that really have said, I’m going to make this a very intimate and sensuous experience that I’m really going to focus on what I want to see, what I want to hear, what I want to smell, what I want to taste, what I want to feel, even in giving themselves some soothing self-touch. And for many people that I’m seeing, and I remember the first time it happened years ago, I’m seeing people masturbate. And really decide that, you know, if they’re going to get their own oxytocin flowing, if they’re going to be doing those things that bring them pleasure, that they feel that is going to not only help the labor go quicker and easier, but also make it more pleasurable. So I’ve been at numerous births now. Sometimes I’m in the room, but many times I’m asked to leave the room, which is quite appropriate, and to say, could you help keep private space for us? You know, we’d like either alone or together, we’d like, you know, a period of time to know that no one’s going to come barging in. So if you wouldn’t mind being outside the door and letting the midwife or anyone that wants to come in know that we really need them to knock first and wait for permission. So I’m not always there. So I don’t want to tell like, details, but it’s really special to be able to hold space for people that realize that they want to use that energy of love and intimacy.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:24:52:

That reminds me of, you were mentioning the oxytocin with kissing, and that is something that midwives and doulas around the world kind of intuitively know that if you give a couple privacy, they can kiss, that increases the oxytocin, that can help actually strengthen contractions. And make labor progress smoother. Can you talk a little bit more about the hormones for our listeners who aren’t as familiar? I’m sure you’re well-versed in this. I’m sure it’s covered in your book. Can you just give us a brief overview of maybe oxytocin, endorphins, or any other hormones and their importance in birth?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:25:31:

Sure, I’d be happy to. And I always like to credit your work and Dr. Sarah Buckley. Dr. Dr. Sarah Buckley has really taught me so much about the hormones of labor and birth and breastfeeding. But oxytocin is the hormone, we call it the hormone of love, calm, and connection. And it is the hormone that’s going to be produced in the brain and then drips down into the bloodstream. And what’s so amazing to me is the uterus grows more oxytocin receptors in that 24 to 48 hour window before labor begins. So the body is really readying and ripening to receive this oxytocin when it comes. And throughout labor, there’s what we call the oxytocin feedback loop, right? The brain is going to produce oxytocin. And some of it is what gives us that feel good, love, connection. For me, that’s the orgasmic feeling. It’s that really heightened oxytocin in our brain, like after orgasm, that great feeling. And then in the body, it’s creating those contractions. I like to call them sensations and surges that are building. And the more the uterus works and gives pressure to open and push that baby down, it is the pressure into the pelvic floor. That creates even more sensations to say, come back to the brain to produce more. 

So this loop is happening that the brain’s producing. We’re getting sensations. We’re pressuring into that pelvic floor and the body loops up and makes more. And while that’s happening, the body is doing a whole hormonal cocktail of prolactin, often called the mothering hormone, to get your body ready for feeding, and for parenting. And the endorphins, my favorite, the hormones of pleasure that are really helping you so that as labor gets more intense, those beta endorphins are what’s going to give you kind of your natural pain relievers. Athletes know this as the athlete’s high, the runner’s high. If you’ve ever been doing hard work to where your body burns and your muscles shake, right? All of a sudden you feel good and you go beyond it. That’s where you’re getting those endorphins in. And what’s so interesting about the hormones of birth, other than prolactin, and there are several others, but they’re very similar to the hormones of female sexuality and orgasm. And they need the same conditions to be produced and released as when you’re being intimate, either by yourself or with a partner. And so I always say to people, think about, you know, the best sex that you can have or plan the best sex for Friday night. And how would you like that environment to be? What would you like the room to be like, the temperature, the lighting, the sounds? Because our hormones don’t make a difference. They don’t say, oh, this is sex and I need to be private and safe and dim lights. And this is birth. I’m okay with three strangers, fluorescent lights, and questions, being asked to me. So the optimal way to run your hormones is the way that you know to run your hormones is what do you need to have them flow gently and easily when you’re being intimate again, either alone or with a partner in a safe environment. And so as Dr. Buckley would say, most people need to feel safe, private and unobserved. And that would be true in all circumstances.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:29:26:

So instead of having people watching you, they’re there to support you. And we talk about that in the EBB Childbirth Class about not having… necessarily observers there unless it’s something you’ve specifically consented to because you know, just like with some female animals, we don’t feel comfortable birthing while we’re being just watched. It doesn’t feel safe unless you are really trusting and… and the people there playing a role in supporting you.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:29:55:

Definitely. And I want to add to that, though. I think sometimes, and I see this as a doula, that some people, the observer is the person themselves. And so we really have to get out of our own head. And that’s true in sex, right? Like if you’re thinking, how do I look? How do I sound? And you start observing yourself, you often lose the loving feeling. But I think in birth, too, sometimes people are like, oh, what did that just sound like? Or, you know, they’re thinking about it.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:30:23:

Yeah.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:30:24:

Yeah. So it can be other people, it can be ourselves, and it also can be technology. And I see that with fetal monitors where people are watching the machine and that becomes the observer. So really not having feeling observed takes multiple layers from the people that are there to support you to yourself and to technology, because you can’t think your way through labor, right, you have to feel your way. It’s that inward journey, just like making love. And so you need to get into that state. And if you’ve ever been making love and all of a sudden you think of three things you should have done today, you know how all that loving feeling ends because it’s like now you’re in your head and not in your body. And I think we have to talk about that’s so true in birth. Not only other people asking you questions takes you out of that great hormonal flow, but your own kind of thinking too much can also disturb the flow of hormones.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:31:28:

And… correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that this is one reason if you’re planning a hospital birth that sometimes contractions slow down when you get to the hospital, correct? Can you explain why that is?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:31:41:

Yes, because hopefully at home, and not for everyone, but for most people, home is your safe place. It’s easier to claim privacy because if you don’t want people in your space, you’re usually not shy to say, like, leave me alone, or I’m going in the room and shutting the door. So people at home can set up the ideal environment of privacy, safety, unobserved to really let their hormones flow and let labor progress. And that shift from home to hospital, for some people, can be a little bit nerve-wracking. If hospital has an association for you, maybe a past event for you or a family member of not being a safe space, sometimes even hospital smell for some people can trigger a more stress mode. And we know that in the first stage of labor, anytime you have the stress hormones, the catecholamines present, they’re designed in the first stage of labor to slow or stop labor so that you can get to where you feel safe and private and unobserved. So when you enter the hospital, it really, for many people, is a time of transition where you need to reestablish safety, privacy, unobserved, creating your own environment that will allow your hormones to get going again. So it’s okay that this happens, it’s kind of a normal protective function. I think of our bodies when we’re not feeling safe to slow or stop labor, but it’s important to know and have a toolkit if that does happen to you. How are you creating your own, I call it Birth Ambiance, how are you setting up that room once you settle in so that you’re defining what is safety to you.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:33:32:

What about other challenges that might interfere with orgasmic birth or pleasure and birth? Because when you’re talking about pleasure and the ideal scenario, it really brings to mind maybe a home birth or a water birth where there’s privacy and you can move around without any restrictions. Choose everything from what you eat to who comes in the room. And it makes me wonder, is it possible or can you explain to our listeners how you can have pleasure if there’s complications or you’re having interventions such as an induction or an epidural or… Pitocin, what are ways you can cope with those?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:34:17:

Yeah, and that’s such an important question. I thank you, Rebecca, because yes, I mean, you can see how easy it is at home or in a birth center even. The environments are kind of created for you to be in a home-like space so you can flow all these things easier. But I’ve had many people, and I think it’s equally important if you’re in a hospital that you create a home-like environment. And certainly where inductions are needed, where epidurals are needed, or even Cesarean births are needed for safety for either person. I think it’s really important to say we can still bring love, we can still bring pleasure back to those creating that long list of simple pleasures, of words that you’d like to hear from your support team, from your partner if you have them. How can you be loved through labor? And taking the time to write those down, creating that birth ambience. I mean, in an operating room for a Cesarean birth, we can’t dim the lights and that, but we are finding more times we can even bring in our own smells. You know, if your skin’s not sensitive, you can put a little here. You can have your partner or someone put it on their wrist and kind of blow by. So you want to think about what are the elements that we can bring to any birth? And so often it’s about the words that you hear, the touch you receive, the eye contact. And when I have people even with inductions, right? Have your good list of your own oxytocin enhancers. 

I’ve had people with inductions that are masturbating or using vibrators or kissing and doing nipple stimulation added on to all the other things as well. And so I have had people in every single situation be able to bring more love, joy, connection, pleasure to birth. And in their definition, call it an orgasmic birth. I’ve had some beautiful, when we’ve needed Cesarean birth, where people really maintained that kind of connection and love and intimacy, even during a Cesarean birth and cried after with such tears that while it was very different than the home birth they were planning. When they realized this was what was needed for safety for their baby. And they were able to bring many elements of their connection and love, that it was a really beautiful, gentle Cesarean birth. So I do appreciate, we need to talk about this because I think it’s our birthright. I think we have a birthright to birth with love and pleasure. And we need the system to start honoring this and recognizing the roles that providers play as well in helping people have privacy and safety and for everyone to feel comfortable with a more loving atmosphere.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:37:23:

It seems like it should be prioritized more by hospital staff. The ambience of the environment would be an afterthought. But what you’re saying is the words that we’re using, the tone of voice, the lighting, the smells, the music, if there’s music, all of those things can make it not just pleasurable, but feel safer and a moment that you’ll remember fondly instead of something that you look back like through the eyes of a traumatic birth.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:37:55:

Totally. And think about music. Because, you know, if you’ve ever walked in a room, right, and like, strange room, you just happen to like be somewhere and your favorite song comes on, like your body changes, like you feel the difference in your hormones. And the place that might have been really strange all of a sudden, because it’s your music, feels more welcoming. So, yeah, if hospitals prioritize that every aspect of our senses, that’s sensuality, right? What do each of our senses take in? And I feel like that should be intake for everyone. You know, what do you need to feel safe? What smells? What music? Put your playlist on even, again, during a Cesarean birth, you know, listening to your song or singing your baby into the world. What is your favorite song that you want to sing your baby into? There’s so much that’s really simple, right, that we could be doing. That would honor birth in beautiful ways. And I have to add, I do a lot of work with midwife Robin Lim. And one of the things she says all the time is if you want to create a loving atmosphere and raise the oxytocin level in the room in any birth setting, just tell everyone in the room, I love you. And, you know, when you have midwives, doctors, nurses, birthing people, partners, doulas, all just take a moment. And just say, I love you to that person in labor. You can just, even saying it now, I can feel a little bit, you know, if you say I love you enough, it really does change the environment. So lots we could all do.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:39:42:

That reminds me, I had a friend who is an opera singer and she sang during her birth and it brought her so much pain relief, she said afterwards. And then I’m a fan of Renée Fleming, who’s a famous opera singer. And we were just at one of her recitals. She’s touring small towns. And she talked about this book she edited that just came out called Music in the Mind. And I’ve gotten it. I haven’t read through all of it. But one of the things I found is interesting is that when they do like MRI scans of singers, like just thinking about singing or imagining singing changes how your brain is working, which I thought was interesting. So I’ve thought a lot about playing music. And in our class, we talk about playlists and creating the music you want. But I hadn’t really thought about choosing the songs you want to sing to your baby or singing during labor.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:40:37:

Oh, I love it.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:40:38:

Yeah, that’s really cool.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:40:40:

Always sing your baby into the world. I always tell everyone to do that. It’s even if, you know, however your baby comes into the world, it shifts everything. And you know, the book you’re talking about, I can’t wait to read now too. But think about if we could have that for birth, right? Like if just thinking about singing can change the mind, thinking about pleasure, thinking about birth in an enjoyable, orgasmic way, I wish we had that proof because I do feel that for so many people, that shift in mindset really brings a big shift in the birth.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:41:17:

Yeah, I was really fortunate to be able to take the Hypnobabies® class with my second baby. And the mindset and the looking forward to giving birth instead of with fear, that was a huge shift for me personally. And I think it does, it probably does rewire your brain in some way when you’re anticipating something with joy. Rather than with fear. And I know not everybody can escape fear and anxiety. It’s a part of us. But I really appreciate your helping us focus on pleasure and love and intimacy and how these things are not only beautiful, but also useful for helping make birth easier. I want to ask you a few questions before we go about doula training. So you’ve trained many doulas, and I would love to know, like, what, what advice do you have for any doulas who may be listening?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:42:12:

In general or about orgasmic birth in general?

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:42:15:

Either, either.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:42:15:

Okay.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:42:16:

In general or maybe tying in a little bit of the pleasure and the doula’s role. Yeah.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:42:21:

So one, for all the doulas who are listening, I am just so honored, right? It’s been an amazing time to see doulas literally all over the world that are coming in and creating safety and privacy and unobserved for their clients. And that would be my number one tip I always say is to really ask people, because each person needs to write their own definition of what’s safe, you know, what’s private. I’ve had people privacy is them alone, you know, and for other people, private is their entire family there because the family’s bringing them such safety and that feels private and completely unobserved. So those elements as doulas helping frame that, I think is so important. But I also think, doulas as we’re growing all over the world are also such incredible advocates and doulas have that unique role where they get to see all different providers in all different settings and providers themselves don’t get to see that. They often don’t know that, you know, there’s a home birth community happening right next to the hospital or they’ve never seen a birth center if they birth, if they’ve always been in the hospital. So I think doulas as advocates, I really appreciate that people are starting to use that advocate voice to help make these changes so that we can create a home birth environment in the hospital and help staff really realize that even for them, creating this ambience, creating this loving, pleasurable environment invites the staff as well to be in a gentler environment. And I think that, doulas, we play a role with our clients to have safer, more satisfying, gentle, pleasurable births. But we also play a role in inviting the care team to see what’s possible in birth and hopefully create more satisfaction for them too. Because I know everybody’s goal is to do their best and to have the safest births. But sometimes right now, a lot of people are very stressed within our hospital environment. And I’d love to see more love and joy for everyone.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:44:44:

It improves birth for everyone, including the staff. I can only imagine the difference with all that love and joy in the room and just really making it a sacred moment that everybody remembers that’s beautiful for… The people who are there working and the people who are there to birth. So thank you so much, Debra, for just all the wealth of knowledge you’ve given us in the last 45 minutes. Is there any, do you have any projects going on or anything right now that you want people to learn about or ways they can connect with you?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:45:22:

Yes. One of my passions right now, especially for doulas, nurses, midwives, doctors, is to come and take our advanced workshops on Orgasmic Birth practitioners. I feel if more people could understand the concepts, and there are so many more to go into to bring to your practice and to your clients together, we can really be on this birth revolution to transform birth with love and pleasure. And you can find me everywhere at Orgasmic Birth, orgasmicbirth.com. We’ll bring you to classes and our documentary and to go to any of the social. We’re mainly on Instagram @orgasmicbirth, but you can find us on all the social platforms @orgasmicbirth.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:46:12:

Thank you, Debra. This has been so educational. Like you said, it’s just scratching the surface, but I think hopefully our listeners will walk away with just really their brains turning on how incorporating pleasure into birth benefits everyone and practical ways that they can do that. So thank you again, Debra, for joining us today.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro – 00:46:33:

Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you so much.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:46:37:

This podcast episode was brought to you by the Evidence Based Birth® childbirth class. This is Rebecca speaking. When I walked into the hospital to have my first baby, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Since then, I’ve met countless parents who felt that they too were unprepared for the birth process and navigating the healthcare system. The next time I had a baby, I learned that in order to have the most empowering birth possible, I needed to learn the evidence on childbirth practices. We are now offering the Evidence Based Birth® Childbirth Class totally online. In your class, you will work with an instructor who will skillfully mentor you and your partner in Evidence Based care, comfort measures, and advocacy so that you can both embrace your birth and parenting experiences with courage and confidence. Get empowered with an interactive online Childbirth Class you and your partner will love. Visit evidencebasedbirth.com/childbirthclass to find your class now.