Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:00:00:
Hi everyone, on today’s podcast, we’re going to talk with Erica Chidi about her company, LOOM, and how she’s transitioned from doula work to focusing on health education. Welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. My name is Rebecca Dekker, and I’m a nurse with my PhD and the founder of Evidence Based Birth®. Join me each week as we work together to get evidence-based information into the hands of families and professionals around the world. As a reminder, this information is not medical advice. See ebbirth.com/disclaimer for more details. Hi everyone, and welcome to today’s episode of the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. My name is Rebecca Dekker, and I will be your host for today’s episode. Today we have with us Erica Chidi, who is the visionary behind LOOM, a pioneering health information app designed to empower women and non-binary individuals to thrive at every life stage by blending science, storytelling, and community. As co-founder and CEO at LOOM, Erica navigates multiple roles, author, health educator, angel investor, and a transformative figure in women’s health. With more than a decade of experience as a full-spectrum doula, Erica has guided thousands towards holistic self-care, deepening their understanding of their bodies. Her writings have appeared in the New York Times, and she has been featured in platforms such as Vogue, The Cut, and Marie Claire. As co-host of The Goop Podcast from 2021 to 2023, she engaged with some of the brightest minds, elevating the conversations on women’s health and well-being. Also, she is author of Nurture: A Modern Guide to Pregnancy, Birth, and Early Motherhood, a trusted resource for many. Erica, welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast.
Erica Chidi – 00:01:50:
Thanks for having me. Happy to be here.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:01:54:
Yeah, you’ve had such an interesting path through birth work and health movements. So could you start off by telling us what got you interested in birth and then how that eventually led to you writing a book about pregnancy and childbirth?
Erica Chidi – 00:02:09:
I think I ended up in the birth world because I think most of my life, I often say this, I was kind of the tampon lady or the, you know, vagina lady or the period lady. Like if people were having issues or had questions around those things, I was kind of always the one that they would come to. I think some of that had to do with, you know, growing up in a very medical environment with my parents both being clinicians. My dad’s a doctor, my mom’s a nurse. And so I grew up not having a lot of fear around my body. And being really comfortable talking about it. And regardless of the different iterations of my life that I was moving through, whether it was, you know, whether I was in college or culinary school or working in PR, I just continued to kind of have that space. And so when I found myself not really, I got my bachelor’s in art history and visual culture and media and writing. And eventually kind of landed in PR and like in the communications world and didn’t really enjoy it that much. I took a break and my father suggested that I should think about midwifery. A lot of my aunts are nurses. I remember him saying it could be a great place for you to spend some time. And I felt really aligned with that. And so I ended up moving back from South Africa to the States, I’ve spent the most formative years of my life in South Africa from about 9 to, I’d say, 20, 21. Came back to the States, to California, to the Bay Area, and started doing all my nursing prerequisites to become a midwife. But en route to doing that, I found out about doulas, and I trained under a really amazing midwife in San Francisco named Abigail Reagan out of Natural Resources, which was a parenting resource store center in the Mission. And I really loved it, and I also was working at Natural Resources at the time. So I worked there so I could get my doula training for free and then was able to start pulling clients off the floor and kind of combining my culinary skills with my kind of very specific kind of childless POV, which I think to this day continues to always be a supportive component for me, primarily because I have never brought a qualitative approach to birth. I’m always thinking about it from a quantitative perspective and what I’ve seen and what I’ve done and seen other people move through as opposed to being like, well, this worked for me and you should try this. It’s more like I’ve seen this work. I’ve seen different things for different people. And I’m curious about what your experience might look like. And let’s try what you’re thinking of, which I think a lot of my clients really loved because at the time, doula work, which now has really changed, I definitely was one of the first movers that was, you know, in my early 20s, no children and wanting to be a doula. I think at that time, which I guess now was almost 15 years ago, there were a lot of doulas who were more, you know, later in life or middle-aged had had children. And so, in terms of, you know, starting off in San Francisco, building out my private practice there. I also was very involved in the reproductive justice movement. I was one of the first members of the Birth Justice Project that was working with folks that were pregnant and incarcerated. Helping them be able to labor or get childbirth education or have postpartum support as they were reentering. Because in jail, the offenses are more minor. So there’s much more of a fluidity with how long people are incarcerated for as opposed to a prison. But I also was working with like the 1% of founders and CEOs in Noe Valley in San Francisco. So it was a very interesting dichotomy. But what I learned is that regardless of the socioeconomic standpoint, everybody had the same questions. And had the same knowledge deficit. And so that always stuck with me as I continued to build my career, moved from San Francisco to LA with my ex-husband at the time. He set up in Venice. And we were living on a shared kind of commune bungalow where there was a big communal garden. And I started doing childbirth education classes out of our bungalow and in our garden. I would cook a farm-to-table meal and teach a four-part childbirth ed class over a few weeks. And that picked up in popularity. And I think that’s where I got some of my first early awareness about my work and what I was doing. And then I was very early on social media. A big part of that had to do with living in San Francisco at the time that Instagram was at its nascent stage. So I think I got on there in like 2015 or something like that, maybe even 2014, like super early. And I began to talk a lot about pregnancy, postpartum online, on social. And I actually very unusual, but I, through my work on social media and, you know, the establishment of my kind of initial company, which is called The Mama Circle, we would do these events and different things. One of the head editors at The Chronicle books cold emailed me and asked me if I’d be interested in writing a book about pregnancy because they had been following my work for some time. And I said, yes. And that’s where Nurture came from. So it was a very reactive experience. I mean, luckily, I think one of my core skill sets is I do see myself as I am a writer. And so it was fun to be able to put those skills into a book, even though I had not set out with that expressed intention to do that. But I’m really grateful. And the book will be 10 years old in two years, which is really crazy. And, you know, it’s been beautiful to see what it’s been able to do in the world.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:08:26:
So Erica, while you were talking, just a common theme I was hearing was that of educator. So even as a teenager, you were out there handing out tampons, explaining bodily functions to people and finding that everybody had similar gaps in knowledge. And then I love that your book has been out there and it has so many reviews. Like, on Amazon, getting that many reviews, it’s had long legs. So it’s reached a lot of people. One of the questions I had for you is I was wondering if you could explain to me and our listeners. What is the LOOM app? Why did you create it? And like kind of give us the elevator speech of how it can help people. Because I’m sure a lot of people are curious about what it actually does.
Erica Chidi – 00:09:12:
Yeah, it is a health education platform. It’s currently an app and it will be available on web soon in the sense that right now it’s only on iOS, so you need an iPhone to be able to access it. And we’re working on creating a little bit more accessibility there. But it basically blends together evidence-based science-backed health information in a kind of inquiry format so all of the guides in the app are question-based so it’s you know what is an IUD? Why are cramps a thing? What are fibroids? etc. All the guides are broken down into anywhere from five to eight parts with everything from questions to ask your doctor to the basics of the actual topic or experience that it’s referring to. In a way that’s really simple and easy to digest. And then there are stories, audio stories from real people around the world around their sexual reproductive health experiences. And so a big part of the app was kind of emulating what was happening in the physical space of LOOM. LOOM was actually a brick and mortar physical space that I co-founded and opened in LA from 2017 to 2019. And we would teach health education classes there, again, across the life cycle. And people learned a lot from the classes, but they also learned a lot from hearing each other’s stories. And so, the app essentially is trying to put forward that health education, health information, health stories are actually a health intervention. They’re just not considered primary and valuable. And so what I’ve been trying to do is and what we’ve been trying to do with LOOM is to try to show that it can drive better outcomes for people.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:11:05:
So, I think with LOOM as a brick and mortar, like was that started with an emphasis on pregnancy and birth and then that mission kind of expanded over the years or have you always had like the full spectrum of reproductive wellness as part of what LOOM was doing?
Erica Chidi – 00:11:24:
We always had the full spectrum. That was really important. You know, whether it was miscarriage, abortion, sex, periods, they were all there. Or put forward as coming down the pipeline, eventually. We wanted to be a place where people could be supported from end to end.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:11:45:
I have kind of a random question about the LOOM app and it has to do with AI and, you know, you being in California. So one of the things I’m finding is that, as more and more people turn to platforms that use AI or even Google and Meta and they’re all embedding AI. And so people are searching for pregnancy and reproductive health issues on AI and not always getting accurate responses. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about like how LOOM is different or how are you like dealing with that issue?
Erica Chidi – 00:12:18:
Yeah, LOOM is not AI-driven. So all of the health information that is there is vetted by a human person and then by a doctor before it goes on to our platform. So it’s moving through a number of hands. So people should feel safe in using LOOM and not being concerned about AI. That said, I mean, I do think these language models have value, but it has to really be utilized in a certain way.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:12:53:
Yeah. And I know on your website, you talk about how one of your goals is to not spread misinformation, but info you can trust, which that makes sense. It’s great to hear you have like a review process. What else are you hoping to see with the LOOM app? Like, what are some of your goals? I know you said you’re hoping to get it on a web-based app, and I’m assuming Android. And how else are you thinking of getting this into the hands of more people?
Erica Chidi – 00:13:22:
I think conversations like this, I think, you know, continuing to collect and to share out more stories from people. I think we’re, you know, at a certain point where we’re trying to think of what is going to be next and what the evolution looks like. But I think at this point, even if nothing else were to come from this, I think the quality of the information and the way that it’s organized and the stories that are there, I think are a big step forward for what health education and health content can look like. And so I know we feel really proud that it’s in the world. And I think that it’s a big step forward.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:14:02:
Yeah, that makes sense. With another project that you were involved in that I wanted to kind of pick your brain about was in 2020, you helped co-author Protecting Your Birth: A Guide for Black Mothers for the New York Times, which I know got a lot of attention when it came out. But it’s also like your book had long legs and that it keeps impacting people. So I was wondering if you could tell us about some of the takeaways from this guide that you created.
Erica Chidi – 00:14:33:
You know, again, I think I’ve been really privileged to be, again, a first mover in so many different ways. And I think I’m grateful to have laid a lot of groundwork that people can utilize and interact with. I think the main piece about that article, and I think about it a lot, and I really am very grateful for my friendship with Dr. Erica Cahill. And I see her as a long-term collaborator. I know we’ve been thinking about kind of like what a next grant could look like, because that’s actually what ended up happening with that article is that we ended up kind of pushing it forward and turning it into a grant. So the main kind of key points about that article are that racial anxiety creates a major barrier for Black women. And the racial anxiety really is most of the time laid in with the care provider being unable to openly acknowledge the fact that they are in front of and caring for a Black woman. And instead of acknowledging that because the anxiety around acknowledging that is too high, it’s not acknowledged. And then these covert biases overtake the care experience and lead to misdiagnosis, undermedicating for pain, etc. And so the, the framework of this anti-racist birth preferences, which is what the article espoused and then eventually became through the grant, was giving providers and Black women scripting, dialogue, to be able to address and touch in on some of these more challenging issues and trying to help unpack how race can impact prenatal care and postpartum care. And it really came out of the fact out of working as a doula, I think at that point for about seven years. I had just seen that what was really lacking was a system of thinking, like a system of communication. I really believe in the power of dialogue, but not just dialogue that you’re coming up with on the fly, like actually being told, say this, not that, say this, not that. And it works in a number of different settings, but I hadn’t seen it. I hadn’t seen it applied in towards racism and healthcare. And so the article was my idea. It was my concept. But I went to Dr. Cahill and I asked her if she would write it with me because I felt like there was something to be said. And I wanted the care provider perspective along with the kind of community advocate doula perspective to come together. And I also wanted a white care provider because that’s really where the issues are germinating from. I felt like it would make sense for us to come together.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:17:37:
It reminds me of how colorblindness and saying you believe in colorblindness is like a microaggression in a way, or more so than that, because it immediately sets you up as someone, if you’re a white care provider, who’s not safe to talk to about your anxieties and fears about racism in the system. I love how the article has different scripts for both the patients and providers who can talk about these issues. So I guess we have a lot of healthcare providers and birth workers who listen to this podcast, about, I would say 60%, fall into that camp, and then 40% are expecting a baby. So for the healthcare providers who are listening, what are your suggestions? What did you learn from writing that article about, do you broach this subject yourself, or do you just respond if a patient brings it up? Or are you just more attentive and a better listener knowing that these issues are happening in maternal healthcare?
Erica Chidi – 00:18:40:
Yeah, I think the thing to do as a provider, and I think this is definitely when you’re a white care provider caring for someone who is non-white or who is Black. Acknowledging bringing race into the room is actually really important. I think extra attention doesn’t necessarily clarify why the extra attention is taking place. So I think acknowledging that, like, I see you as a Black woman, and I want to acknowledge that X, X, and Y is something that we’re considering because of that. Or I can understand that you might be more nervous about this as a Black woman, given what we understand about the outcomes. We are working towards XXX. I think that acknowledgement is going to be really important so that there’s a level set that this person is paying attention to my unique circumstance. The same way like a cardiologist would be like giving your age and stage. I’m thinking this and that.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:19:40:
But then also being clear that you’re not seeing their Blackness as a risk factor, but more the fact that they’re having to navigate this system as a Black woman.
Erica Chidi – 00:19:51:
Yes, but I think it’s one in the same. I think a risk factor, it is a risk factor being a Black woman in the healthcare system, period. It just is. And that is obviously systemic because of-
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:20:05:
Because of racism.
Erica Chidi – 00:20:06:
Because of racism. And I think, there are certain risk factors as a Black woman because of telomeres and weathering in the sense that, you know, being in a Black body, you weather more your telomeres. You might be genealogically 30 years old, but you might be weathered and be presenting more like someone who’s much older than that. So there are specific risk factors in just being a Black person on top of the structural racism that’s embedded in health care that creates more barriers for Black women and people to be able to get competent care.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:20:53:
What improvements have you seen, I know you’re located in California, but you interact with people all over the country and the world. In the last 10 years that you’ve been doing this work, have you seen improvements in terms of better care? People are listening more to Black women, or does it still seem to be just as bad as it was 10 years ago?
Erica Chidi – 00:21:18:
You know, it’s hard to say. I think that there has been… The only thing I can speak to because I’m not on the ground as much as I used to be and I’m not embedded on the research side. What I do think is that, you know, we now have Black Maternal Health Week. That’s only a few years old. And I was involved in the inaugural one and the ones that have followed. There’s more awareness. So I think the awareness is driving people’s preparedness going into certain situations. And I think that care providers are starting to take more accountability and have more awareness themselves. But I think this is a life, lifetime issue. It’s a lifelong issue. We’re going to have to continue to be addressing it at different stages. And I don’t think that one thing is going to be a panacea either. And so, you know, I think there is some incremental change. I mean, there’s Kimberly. Yeah. So there’s Kimberly Seals Allers who started Irth App®, where Black women can review OBGYNs. There’s LOOM. There’s also, you know, even Evidence-Based Birth®. I think that regardless of race, there’s so much, I think, that you’ve covered over the years in terms of real self-advocacy and precision around how to navigate the environment. And so, you know, those resources weren’t there 10 years ago. Maybe I think maybe EBB was just starting, but like it wasn’t, you know, so I think there’s just a lot more available now, which I think creates a trickle down of change. But I think, you know, and I guess there have been other changes. The White House now is doing a massive mandate around women’s health and also around maternal mortality. And, you know, there’s a toll-free line that you can call now if you’re needing mental health support and you are currently pregnant or postpartum. So there’s there has been changes. I’ll say that.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:23:17:
There’s been more resources.
Erica Chidi – 00:23:19:
More resources. Yeah.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:23:20:
I think more and more birth workers being trained, specifically birth workers of color rising.
Erica Chidi – 00:23:27:
Correct.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:23:28:
In greater numbers, which is really cool to see. But in terms of the outcomes, yeah, I think we’re still waiting to see if the data like, if we’ve done enough to move the needle.
Erica Chidi – 00:23:40:
Correct.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:23:40:
But yeah, you’re right. It’s a generational issue.
Erica Chidi – 00:23:44:
Yeah.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:23:44:
Not something that might ever be solved in our lifetimes, but hopefully we can at least do our part while we’re here. Erica, you’ve been involved in a lot of wellness issues. And as someone who’s like deeply involved in these initiatives, especially related to reproductive wellness or mental health, do you have any advice for our listeners who are struggling with mental or physical health challenges at this point in their lives?
Erica Chidi – 00:24:14:
I would say just give yourself permission to not have to be in pain. I think there is this dynamic or feeling that we have to just endure. And we have to just go along with it. And there isn’t enough time to take time off to get that surgery. For example, I had, you know, 25 fibroids that had to be removed from my body.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:24:38:
I was just thinking of fibroids. So it’s so funny that you brought that up.
Erica Chidi – 00:24:41:
Yeah. Yeah. I should have done it sooner. But it was all about when is the right time. And so, yeah, I think that would be my recommendation would just be, yeah, give yourself permission to not be in pain and tend to your body as much as you’re able to, as much as your time allows, your income allows, your lifestyle allows.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:25:04:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think we all tend to put things off.
Erica Chidi – 00:25:07:
Yeah, don’t put things off.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:25:12:
Yeah. There’s so many things related to reproductive health. I mean, even just like getting a mammogram.
Erica Chidi – 00:25:18:
Yeah.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:25:19:
That’s something that’s so easy to just not do.
Erica Chidi – 00:25:21:
Yes.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:25:22:
You know?
Erica Chidi – 00:25:23:
Yes, yes.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:25:25:
We’re always taking care of everybody else and not tending to ourselves necessarily.
Erica Chidi – 00:25:30:
Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:25:32:
Erica, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners? Anything that’s on your mind these days?
Erica Chidi – 00:25:38:
I think just a reminder to folks to just be gentle on themselves. There’s so much happening right now. I think we’re really living through. Just, yeah, a generational moment where I think we’ll look back in 40 years and be like, wow, that was really a time. And so, you know, I think as people who are caring for others. As care providers and caretakers, remember to pour back into your own cup. That’s going to make you even more available to push things forward and do the work that you so brilliantly do. Just remember that the patients and the clients that you’re interacting with are really going through it. As they are seeking your care. And so, it’s really thinking about this, you know, there is a circularity to everything that’s going on right now. And so the more that we can show up for ourselves, take care of ourselves and not put things off. We can model that for our clients, our patients. So that would be, that would be what’s on my mind.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:26:55:
Yeah. And our clients and listeners who are pregnant, like, if we’ve had some of our guests talk about how pregnancy doesn’t necessarily mean pain, like back pain, pelvic pain, you know, for birth workers, we do a lot of physical movement and then you just keep pushing through. And I think, we do that and then we pay for it later.
Erica Chidi – 00:27:21:
Yeah.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:27:22:
I know that you were also talking about looking back like 40 years from now, but when we look back and say, and a word popped into my head, it’s I heard it from another podcast where they were talking about liminal moments and I didn’t know what that was. So I had to Google it.
Erica Chidi – 00:27:35:
Yeah. This is very liminal.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:27:38:
Yeah, the transition between where you’ve been and where you’re going. So it’s like a threshold moment. So it does feel in some ways like we’re at a moment like that, right?
Erica Chidi – 00:27:49:
Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think the care providers out there will also enjoy this metaphor. You know, we’re in this like Delta of change between. It’s like right after you ovulate like, the delta change between the end of ovulation until we you get that more full reservoir of progesterone it’s like kind of a nightmare a little bit for a lot of people a lot of people are sensitive to the delta. And we’re in a delta right now. And so everything that’s going on just feels so exacerbated and so tense. Because we are inside of the change right now. And most people are sensitive to that. So yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:28:35:
Yeah, we’re sensitive to our environments as well, what’s going on in the world around us. Thank you, Erica, for coming on the podcast today and just sharing some of these thoughts with us. We really appreciate it.
Erica Chidi – 00:28:48:
Thank you for having me. And thank you for your work as well.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:28:53:
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