Chanté Perryman:
Hi everyone, on today’s podcast, we’re going to talk with Rikki Jenkins and Sara Ailshire about the best tips for transitioning to home with a newborn.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker:
Welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. My name is Rebecca Dekker, and I’m a nurse with my PhD and the founder of Evidence Based Birth®. Join me each week as we work together to get evidence-based information into the hands of families and professionals around the world. As a reminder, this information is not medical advice. See ebbirth.com/disclaimer for more details.
Hi everyone, this is Rebecca. I am so excited for you to listen to this podcast takeover with Team EBB members Chanté, Rikki, and Sara. Before we get started I wanted to jump in and remind you that we are just 5 days away from the launch of the brand-new Evidence Based Birth® pocket guide for Newborn Procedures that covers the evidence on 23 routine newborn procedures and gives you tons of other information about adjusting to life with a baby. As well as we are relaunching our updated pocket guides to comfort measures, labor inductions, and interventions. These new and updated pocket guides are gorgeous. They have beautiful new color covers and so much great research on the inside. And, they’re both concise — i.e. pocket sized — and comprehensive. So, if you’re not on the waitlist yet, jump online and sign up for the waitlist now. Just go to ebbirth.com/waitlist, that’s all one word waitlist. We have about 2,000 people on the waitlist already and a limited number of stock available in our shop. Especially if you want the super quartet, which is a pack of all four pocket guides in physical and digital format at a steep discount. There are only 50 of these super quartets available and they will sell out fast. And, we also have 150 physical quartets in-stock that also get you a fantastic discount. So we are really excited about this. We can not wait to get these new pocket guides out into the world and into your hands, however we know from past experience that physical copies of the pocket guides will sell out. So that’s why we encourage you to get on the waitlist because if you’re on the waitlist you will have 24 hours to grab one before they go on sale to the public and you get the best chance of shopping early before we sell out of physical copies. Oh, and one more thing. If you purchase a physical or digital quartet within the first 48 hours of the sale, you will get an invitation to an exclusive book club meeting with me and Team EBB where we will be talking live about everything you learn from reading about the newborn procedures pocket guide. So, again just go to ebbirth.com/waitlist and you can sign up for the waitlist there and you’ll receive an email afterwards with all the details. And now to celebrate the upcoming release of our brand new pocket guide to newborn procedures Team EBB is going to take over the podcast and give you their best tips for adjusting to life with a newborn. I’m so proud of Chanté, Rikki, and Sara coming on the episode today. I had a blast listening to them and I know you will too. So now, I’m going to give you back to Chanté Perryman, director of programs at Evidence Based Birth and your podcast host for today.
Chanté Perryman:
Hi, everyone, and welcome to today’s episode of the EBB podcast. I am Chanté Perryman, and I am the Director of Programs here at Evidence Based Birth®. And we also have Rikki Jenkins and Sara Ailshire here with us. And if you two want to do a quick introduction of yourselves, go for it.
Rikki Jenkins:
Hi, everyone. I am Rikki Jenkins. I am the EBB Instructor Coordinator, IBCLC Childbirth Educator, and Doula.
Sara Ailshire:
Hi, everybody. My name is Sara Ailshire. I’m an EBB Research Fellow. I’m also completing a PhD in Anthropology.
Chanté Perryman:
Awesome. Well, again, welcome to the podcast. And for our listeners, just so you know that this is going to be more of a casual conversation between the three of us. And if you don’t know, Rikki and Sara both had a baby this year. So this is why we’re kind of on this topic. My last baby was two years ago, almost. So, yeah, we’re just going to do a casual conversation and just share some tips that we all have learned over this last year. So let’s hop right into it. And this is for whoever wants to answer. Why is it important for parents to take a moment to pause and commemorate bringing their baby home from the hospital?
Rikki Jenkins:
Sara, I’ll let you answer that since you’re the newest, newest mom.
Sara Ailshire:
Sure. So I have spent a lot of time living in another country, in India. And when I was there, I studied birth work, doulas, birth professionals. So it’s kind of like around birth spaces. And I saw that, you know, when parents and families bring home a baby, you know, it was a special event. People would commemorate it. People would do certain things. And I always stuck in my mind, like, oh, that’s like a really wonderful thing that people do. And then when we were coming home from the hospital, like we had been there. We were really, like, we were ready to be released, like, the entire day of Sunday. It was such a long, long time. And I was so eager to get home. And I had this teeny, the smallest baby I’d ever, like, seen and held, you know. And I was so ready to get out of the car and get in the house. But I think about it for a moment. I was like, oh, you know, like, this is a special thing. And we should probably take a picture or something, you know. So we sort of all paused. My mother was with us. And we took some photos before we ever stepped foot in the house. I’m glad that we have those pictures. I’m glad that we had that pause before we went in. Because, you know, it was sort of like a life before and after. Especially because, you know, I was a first-time parent. It was just, like, a nice thing to do. It was like a special event. It represents, you know, really a substantial, like, change in your life. And, you know, I saw that modeled living somewhere else. And I’m kind of really grateful I got that tutelage and was able to apply it in my own life.
Chanté Perryman:
How about you, Rikki?
Rikki Jenkins:
That’s really beautiful. It’s interesting because I had two different experiences, one that I thought I’d have and then the actual one with this baby because I have a seven-year-old and my now baby, she’s seven months old. So with her, I was a home birth transfer. So, of course, that looked completely different. But one of the things that was really beautiful that we did when I came home or when we came home was my mother-in-law actually decorated the space. When previously it was decorated, of course, for our home birth, we had home birth supplies everywhere. So the really nice thing was she kind of took most of like the home birthy stuff out. But she put like up really beautiful roses and things like that because my daughter was born in February. So our theme was like Valentine’s Day and love. And so we had like hearts and rose petals everywhere. She took that and made it like a coming home welcome party. So it felt really good. And we took that like there’s just like a breath that you take when you’re like, oh, my goodness, this new baby, even though we had an older baby. So, yeah, I was just like a collective breath. And we were like, OK, this is our life now. Yeah. No what.
Sara Ailshire:
So beautiful.
Chanté Perryman:
I’m glad that you mentioned that, Rikki, with your home birth, transferring your mother-in-law, like redecorating the space for you. So once you got home, how did that like set you up for your early postpartum period? Because I know like you were thinking like, we’re going to have this home birth. This is going to be completely different from when you had your seven-year-old. And now it’s like. You didn’t get that home birth. So like, how did that mentally like change for you, setting you up for your early postpartum period?
Rikki Jenkins:
Yeah, well, there was a lot. Of course, we know emotions, but I will say that my home birth transfer wasn’t anything that I thought it would be in a really good way. So I had a really good experience when I did transfer. I was, you know, as a doula and going with like my clients, I was really thinking I would have a lot of pushback from the hospital. But I got really lucky. There was a laborist who was amazing. Like my mind is still blown thinking about like how amazing everything was transferring to the hospital. And so that kind of already set me up for like, OK, like I don’t feel terrible about what happened. And of course, those emotions you process later. But in the moment, it felt so good to be treated with so much respect, with so much love and compassion at the hospital when I wasn’t expecting that. The house was clean, because, of course, we had everything everywhere. And so coming home and knowing that, like my husband told his mother-in-law, like, hey, let’s remove these things while keeping some of the things. So I didn’t feel empty coming back home, like as if everything was stripped down. Then I would have felt like the house is bare and this is not what we wanted. But it still felt very warm, like there was candles. So the space felt really beautiful. And so I really think that set me up to like feel good throughout my postpartum. And be able to take my time in processing. And it wasn’t like a slap in the face of like I failed. Right. Because that’s the number one thing, the thought process that comes in your head. And I think coming home and having that reminder would have been awful.
Chanté Perryman:
So, for you, what are some best practices that you have learned as being a new parent in deciding in when to accept or decline help after bringing your baby home?
Sara Ailshire:
When we were preparing everything. And thinking about what our plan was going to be when we came home, we initially thought that we were just going to want maybe a week or two to settle in as a new family before, you know, my parents and my husband’s Siavash parents came to visit and stay with us. Because, of course, you know, they were so excited. It’s the first grandchild on both sides for, you know, our parent combos. My father has some grandchildren from a previous marriage. But, you know, so we’re all super excited and we’re just like, hey, let’s let’s manage the excitement here. And then we’re in the hospital. It’s the day after the baby was born and we were shaking in our booties like, oh, no. I was like, I want my mom. So and my mom had come down to visit us in the hospital. My parents live a little bit closer than my in-laws do. I was like, mom, will you please come home with us? And she did. And it was, it was kind of humbling. You know, I really thought I was like, oh, like, you know, I, I’m in this world. Like I, I’ve got it. We’re great. And I was like, no, I wanted, I wanted help. And it’s really hard to accept help, you know, like to admit that like, oh, oh, like I might need more than what I thought. I’m going to need a little bit of guidance and care, but I’m so glad we did. My mom was tremendous. She, you know, she really also made a point not to want to hold the baby and sit and, you know, do what they call HLEP, right? It’s like, it looks like help, but it’s not. Like she was very much like you do the baby. She took care of cooking, you know, she cleaned, like she was just, and more than anything, the most important thing she did, she was so encouraging. Like she would just tell us all the time how good of a job we were doing, like, you know, how, how, you know, just, just really uplifting us and encouraging us. Like, I think she saw two very like freaked out new parents and she, you know, herself had, you know, when she had me, her mother had passed away many years before. So she, I think very much was like recalling her own experience, her uncertainty, the lack of resources that were available to her at the time and the way back in the nineties. And, she was just a tremendous, she’s given us so much, I mean, physical support, but also just emotional support. So Siavash, my husband’s colleagues, like they organize a meal train for us that lasts 10 weeks. Two of his colleagues who have some extensive experience in birth work and, and, and, child rearing came over and we talked about breastfeeding. I’ve been topless in front of more people than I ever thought I was going to be. But it was just such a tremendous gift. Humans are meant to do this in groups. Humans are meant to come together and take care of one another. Nobody gives birth alone. You know, nobody like raises a child alone.
Chanté Perryman:
First of all, the 10 weeks of meal trains.
Sara Ailshire:
Yeah.
Chanté Perryman:
Amazing.
Sara Ailshire:
I know. I couldn’t get over it. I mean, it was always, it was like every single thing was delicious. Like, it was amazing. I was just like, I could never repeat it.
Chanté Perryman:
That’s awesome.
Rikki Jenkins:
The meal train. Oh, my goodness. Like, we had a meal train as well this time around. And it was so, like, you just don’t think that you would need one because it’s like, oh, we provide food for ourselves on a regular day. Like, what’s the difference? And it’s just, you feel so loved. And it’s in a way where they don’t have to be in person. Like, I know that sounds bad, but it’s like, it’s like, we love you. We’re leaving you alone. But I want you to know I’m there. And it was even more beautiful because my husband’s dad passed away. When my community heard, they sent more food with the same existing meal train. And so it was really beautiful to have that through, like, grief. And we have to travel. And so we know traveling is expensive. And so that really got us through.
Chanté Perryman:
When I teach the childbirth class, I share with new parents, especially, like, first-time parents, because they’re like. Yes. I got this. I’m going to do this. And it’s like, wait, hold up. Stop. You’ve never had a baby before. Let’s wheel this back just a little bit. For some people, they don’t like having others come into their home per se. And so it’s like, you know, people are going to want to share and do meal trains and just check on you. And so I always say, just do like a little checklist and put it on your fridge of like, these are the things that I’m comfortable with you helping me with, like vacuuming my living room. If you really like having your bathroom cleaned, please keep my bathroom clean and the supplies are here. Some people are very particular about their laundry, but like, sorry, like you said, like my mom, she would come in and that’s what she did. She just cleaned and did my laundry. And I was like, that was just a huge relief in itself because it’s like, that’s one less thing I don’t have to worry about. So even just doing a small list of like, these are the things that I’m willing to get help with or accept help from. If somebody’s coming over, they should not just be coming over to hold the baby.
Sara Ailshire:
Yeah.
Chanté Perryman:
Like you’re bringing me food. Or you’re helping me in the house some kind of way. Like, please make yourself useful in helping me during this time. So shout out to the 10 weeks of meal trains, though. All right. Next question to talk about. This is about non-gestational parents. So like your husband. How did you all help them build their confidence in being able to care for the newborn?
Rikki Jenkins:
I read, I don’t know where it’s from. It might be floor crews, but leave them alone. Like, let them figure it out. Because a lot of times us as moms or birthing parents, we feel the need to respond. Right? Like. I have to respond because we have that like different bond. Like this is our baby, even though we made it together. This is our baby. I birthed this baby. So I’m responsible for this baby. I found myself like, even if he was changing her diaper, I would like go and try to be like, oh, do it like this. Just observe, watch. And it’s just like, okay, let him take over. Our oldest, when she was a baby, like all she wanted was me, it felt like. And so they didn’t really bond until she was older. And so with this baby, I was like, I don’t want that to happen. Like, I want you to feel bonded right away. But also because like, we had a really great midwife and doula who was like, you’re not allowed to leave bed for the first week. You’re not allowed to go downstairs for the first two weeks. So they were really like on me because the first, our first, I was up and walking around and now I’m like, strange, like no one should be up walking around on day three that they got home from the hospital. And I had a C-section. My midwife was like, you cannot leave the bed. And she told my husband, like, she cannot leave the bed. She can’t go downstairs for the first two weeks. Like she’s stuck here. So it made a world of difference. Like him literally waking up, picking her up, bringing her to me or changing her diaper because newborns have an insane amount of diapers. Changing her diaper first and then bringing her to meet a nurse made a world of difference.
Chanté Perryman:
Did I share that with you, Rikki? I feel like.
Rikki Jenkins:
Maybe you did.
Chanté Perryman:
Because I remember giving you like these.
Rikki Jenkins:
Yeah, you gave me a list of like. I did. Home birth, what to do’s and stuff. So probably you.
Chanté Perryman:
I did. Because that’s what Jim Michael shares. And when he talks with like dad’s, partners, husbands in our childbirth class, that’s the one thing that he like, he has like three things that he really hones in on. But that’s one of them. Like, especially if you’ve had a Cesarean, like we know that those abdominal muscles need to heal, like regardless of how your baby got here, those muscles need to heal. And so ever since we brought our first one home, because my first was a Cesarean. So I think that’s kind of where it came from, is that he would always put the baby on his side. And so when we were getting up in the middle of the night, he would get the baby up. He would do the diaper changing to let me get up, get myself like situated together to either nurse or pump. And if I had milk ready, he would just give the bottle and I would sleep or whatever. You be the one to get up that night, even if you’re just like getting the baby up, doing a diaper change. He says like that’s his time to bond even more with the baby. And guess what? My kids still call for him at night.
Rikki Jenkins:
I was just saying that yesterday. So Amora, she was in her like little bouncer thing. And I called that her potty because she, for some reason, just lets loose in that thing. Sorry to be too graphic. But she literally used the bathroom. You can hear it because babies are loud. And she whipped her head to the left and looked straight dead at her dad. And he was like, why are you looking at me? And she was like, you know what’s in you, sir.
Chanté Perryman:
Right. Change me, please. Sara, what ways did your partner get involved in the early days?
Sara Ailshire:
If my husband could have like, we could have like unclipped the belly from me and put it on him like for half the time he would have. Like he felt very like bad that he couldn’t like do like the physicality of of carrying a pregnancy of birth like I think he felt very much like oh my gosh like you’re doing everything so he felt really like I need to do a lot so he was like in the early days he got really into cloth diapering like he was on fluff love universe like he was he was looking up the geological surveys to see what our water hardness was like he’s so into it but like he made it his own and like from the very beginning like he was like the diaper king You know, and to this day, like, he is still, like, the mayor of Cloth Diaper Mountain. That was his thing. Like from the very beginning, he picked something and made it his own. We went to childbirth classes from our hospital, our local hospital, because they were in person. And we were kind of hoping, oh, we’ll make some parent friends and it happened. Unfortunately, he wasn’t satisfied with that education. So, yeah, we went to some of the EBB materials, of course. And a good friend of mine, Neha, teaches a childbirth class. So, like, he really kind of made it his own thing to, like identify what his needs were, go look it up. My husband, Siavash, was really one pushing for a doula because he’s just like, I need to support you. So I need someone who can support me. And it was really great because after the baby was born, my placenta wouldn’t come. So they had to put me under to like manually remove it. Sorry for hand gestures.
Chanté Perryman:
We get it.
Sara Ailshire:
And it’s kind of like time for father like, take off your shirt, sir. Here’s the baby. Like, let’s go. And having Elaine there to support him was huge. Something my mom told me, she was like, if you want him to do stuff, he has to do it on his own. And I will say this though, we are very lucky. He had a pretty robust parental leave. And that made this possible. It also helps that she’s his clone too, so.
Chanté Perryman:
I love that. I love that.
Sara Ailshire:
Yeah,
Chanté Perryman:
Just helping with the milk, you said. I mean, that’s like one less thing that you have to worry about.
Rikki Jenkins:
The parental leave part is huge. And I know you asked me earlier, Chanté, like, how did this contribute to the postpartum period? And it’s night and day. Like with our first, you know, my partner went back to work, what, like not even a week later. And so I was home alone with this. I was brand new mom, brand new baby, and I was just alone. So I think that really played into why my postpartum depression was so bad with my first. This time around, him being home, it was way different because you have someone checking in on you, like really seeing you, right? Because we put on a face, like friends and family. And so I think that’s really beautiful. It’s a really different perspective that, you know, most folks don’t get, unfortunately. But it really played a big part into, you know, being well.
Chanté Perryman:
Yeah, that’s a whole nother subject. Yes. Parental leave. But it’s relevant, but it’s not. Yes. The positive language. It’s not the best. For a lot of people it’s like what in the world um i was gonna say something to that though Oh, this other thing that Jermichael shares, talking about having that support system in those early weeks. And he says for people to like, look at your leave. If you know that you have like six weeks. Maybe take the first few days of it. But if you have like other family members coming in, let the family come in. Let them do all the helping because, you know, they’re not going to be there. But for like so many days, a week, whatever. So if you like sit or do a schedule of like who’s gonna be there to help, then once everybody else is gone. You can kick in your parental leave. So then that gives mom or the birthing person more support at home instead of everybody coming in at once and everybody leaving at once. And then it’s like week two or whatever. And you’re like, oh my goodness. Where did everybody go. So yeah. Sara, mentioned some pumping stuff. You mentioned pumping a little bit. And since you’re our resident IBCLC. Please tell us when it comes to pumping, how critical is it for parents to ensure that they are using the correct flange size? I also be like, Rikki. So when I have issues, Sara, I’ll just tell you this. When I have issues, it’s like Rikki. I have a lactation consultant here. And then I have Rikki. And it’s like, Rikki, I need help. Something’s not working.
Rikki Jenkins:
Yeah. Because internally we can just chat. And I’m like, I’m here. I don’t mind. I’m going to answer all the questions. It keeps me on my toes. But I will say really quickly that like, even though I’m an IBCLC, I still had no idea what the heck I was doing. I still needed help. Like I had to call my best friend because she’s also a lactation consultant. And I had to be like. My boobs hurt, like my nipples, like this shouldn’t happen. Like I’m supposed to be knowing stuff, right? Like, so I will say that you’re not, you can’t be your own doula. You can’t be on your own lactation consultant. Like you just can’t. So I’ll plug that in. But yes, flange sizes, unfortunately, the pump companies, no matter, I don’t know what thinking brain that they use, love y’all. However, they typically provide the wrong flange sizes because it’s unfortunately based on the dairy industry. And I’m like, we’re, we are not cows. We are human, but okay. So typically the flange size is not the right size or everyone’s sizes are different. And it’s not about your breast size. It’s about the nipple diameter. So getting the proper flange fitting and then always say like my favorite thing to say within, well, everything is do what feels the best for you. So I’ll size folks. But I always say like, if another size feels better for you, use that size. If you are getting more with said size, use that size. But, you know, lactation consultants can come to you in most parts of the world of the U.S. and, you know, they can do a flange fitting for you because your size can change and it can change throughout the whole course that you’re lactating. My size has just changed and I’m like, OK, what’s going on? And I’m seven months postpartum. So that was fun. And then also, right.
Chanté Perryman:
I remember when you told me about that and I was like, Rikki, no, my breasts are the same. And you were like, no, it can change.
Rikki Jenkins:
Because if you think about it, like, you know, in the early days, if you are more on the swollen side, you know, if you have edema, like. Your anatomy is going to be larger than it is, you know? And so, you know, as that goes down, you know, as you get more into your nursing journey, it can change, so. Yeah, absolutely. And that goes into you have to change your pump parts periodically, depending on how much you do pump. So a lot of folks don’t realize that you have to do that. And who can keep track of that, right? Like, we’re busy being parents. And so I get that’s the like most calls I get is like, hey, my supply dropped. I’m not getting as much as I did before. And I’m like, when’s the last time you changed your parts? And they’re like, well, never. And I’m like, let’s start there.
Chanté Perryman:
My last two, I’m still exclusively pumping. And so I know all about the pump parts. And so it’s like the first of the month, because I’m exclusively pumping, I change my parts. Which is time because it’s the beginning of the month. It’s time to change my parts. But for those who might not pump as much, you know, they can go longer with their pump parts. But answer me this, Rikki. How often should we change our pump?
Rikki Jenkins:
Like the motor?
Chanté Perryman:
Yeah.
Rikki Jenkins:
Hopefully you have a good motor. And this is something that you have to be careful about, like when we get, you know, secondhand pumps, which are great, but we have to make sure it’s a closed system. And then I know on the Spectra specifically, you can check how many hours has been essentially clocked on that pump.
Chanté Perryman:
I’m going to message you after this.
Rikki Jenkins:
Yes, message me. But on the Spectra, I know specifically, I can’t think of other pumps that do this, but you can see how many hours has been put on the pump. And you can kind of go from there, like if the motor starts to decline. And as long as you’re getting output, I say leave it. If it’s not broke, don’t fix it. But that’s one of the things on the list. Like, hey, you change your pump parts. Okay, what is the motor sounding like? Like, is it sounding like it normally does? Or are we hearing lag? What does that look like? Especially for folks who are using the same pump from baby to baby. So this kind of happens, you know, it’s like, oh, the pump is kind of old now. Yeah. Especially for the pumpers, for sure. You know, you have a bigger eye on that.
Chanté Perryman:
Yeah. And since, you know, insurance will cover pumps, it’s like new baby, new pump.
Rikki Jenkins:
Yeah.
Chanté Perryman:
Even if you get the same.
Rikki Jenkins:
Even if you don’t need it. It’s nice to have. It’s really lovely to have a backup. Right.
Chanté Perryman:
But I did just learn a fun fact about the spectra hours. Did not know that. Sara, you said in the pump parts.
Sara Ailshire:
Oh, yeah, no, I mean, my insurance, because I got my pump through insurance, I would get these emails. They’re like, do you want new parts? And I was like, is this? Real? Okay, I did it. It was fake, no but um and what something else I found was like I got the Spectra through insurance I purchased another pump just to have something that was a little bit more pardon me more mobile and I was able to get pump parts for that through my insurance Which like, I was like, oh, it’s not like their spectra. Yeah. So that was really great. Anytime they send me an email, I’m like, I’m paying so much for this insurance. Give me my parts.
Rikki Jenkins:
Get them all. Yes. Take full advantage of that. Because yes, you are paying for it. Yeah. Some people get, and they don’t even know. They’re like, oh, I don’t need it. I’m like, just get it anyway. Because it’s amazing to have a backup set, especially, you know, if you’re away from baby all day or you know you’re going to be away from baby, having a second or third set of pump parts so you don’t even have to worry about washing during the day is like my go-to, especially for those who are like on the go. Like, for example, for me, if I have more than a couple of clients throughout the day, I’ll have my pump set up in the car and I have different parts that I can just switch out. I don’t have to worry about sanitization or anything like that. So yes, 100% to the extra parts, all the parts.
Chanté Perryman:
All the parts for your parts. Got it.
Sara Ailshire:
I was going to say, I wanted to throw in the one thing that helped me a lot. I had a lactation counselor came and saw us a few weeks after just to kind of help me check in. I had a hard time because I have very large breasts. And I feel like a lot of the stuff I saw for breastfeeding had people who had much smaller breasts. And I will say this. Global Health Media has this YouTube video series in multiple languages, which was great. I actually watched it in Farsi with my husband. That’s his first language but I saw such a variety of anatomy, different women, different sizes. And that did more to help me than I felt like almost anything else I did prior to like having the baby. So I just wanted to plug that as like a really cool free resource that’s out there. That’s in multiple languages. It’s very accessible. And if, especially if you’re a larger chested person and you’re like, none of this stuff looks like me, like what do I do? How do I hold this baby? Like this Boppy thing is fake. Like that was really, really affirming and just, I think made my life a lot easier and gave me something to look at. Like, okay, we have same, same. Okay. I can do this.
Chanté Perryman:
Awesome. And what was that site again, Sara?
Sara Ailshire:
It was like Global Health Media. They have a breastfeeding series. I think we were going to have it in our show notes.
Chanté Perryman:
Oh, perfect. It’s such a cool resource.
Sara Ailshire:
And like, and like, not just like, you know, English, Spanish, French, like many, many different world languages.
Chanté Perryman:
So. Okay. Awesome. Sara, for you, how can hydration and proper supplementation, such as magnesium, support the postpartum recovery?
Sara Ailshire:
It’s really important. I wasn’t, and initially, you know, you’re just getting like, you get like your teaspoon of colostrum and you’re like, wow, I’m incredible. And then like, you know, as your supply comes in, whatever that looks like, it’s a lot of liquid that’s leaving your body. And I think a lot of people. You know, they say 64 ounces and you’re just like, oh, like how am I going to do all of that in a day? But I was like, oh, no, you really, you really need it. My pelvic floor physical therapist like got on me. She’s like, you need to be drinking. So. But I will say this, like making it a priority was really important. And also getting my partner’s support. Like anytime I’m pumping, Siavash will come and like bring me like water or like, you know, like a tea. Or I’ve been drinking like some like electrolyte powder drink just to kind of like help, you know, kind of keep my, keep everything up. I’m still taking a prenatal, you know, I’m still taking like magnesium. I’m taking some supplements just to kind of like support all the things that are like leaving my body through the milk, you know, better. I feel better. Like I feel better when I’m drinking a lot. So, yeah, I’m sitting here with my like four beverages. But, you know, it’s so important. And I think it’s really easy. You know, there’s so much going on. And like you got to do this. You got to do that. And the care for yourself can sometimes slip into the background. So like doing this. Like taking care of myself helps me take care of my baby. And when my husband does this stuff, like it’s another way that he feels involved. And he feels like he’s contributing. You know, he can’t pump. He doesn’t lactate. By doing that, like, you know, he’s very much ensuring that like, you know, this is a team effort. You know, keeping me feeling good, keeping the baby fed.
Chanté Perryman:
And it makes me think you can’t pour from an empty cup. So you can’t make more milk without hydration.
Rikki Jenkins:
I don’t know. It doesn’t flow very well. You need hydration.
Sara Ailshire:
And even if you’re not pumping, even if you’re formula feeding, you need to be hydrated. You need to be hydrated. You feel better.
Chanté Perryman:
Rikki, you want to share anything about what you’re doing in your hydration or supplementation postpartum?
Rikki Jenkins:
Oh, my goodness. First of all, it’s just remembering to take the supplements. I remember it’s like I looked up and it was like weeks since I took in anything. And I’m like, why do I feel awful? I’m so tired. Like, and I’m neurodivergent. And so unfortunately, I can’t take the medication needed to function. And so that’s been a journey. And so I need a lot of accountability. I need a lot of reminders. Thank you, Chanté.
Chanté Perryman:
You’re welcome.
Rikki Jenkins:
Because I always tell the team, like, I’m sorry, I’m operating on like half of a half of a brain. And so like having constant reminders, like letting people in your life know, like, hey, I need this support. And so remembering to even like fill up my Stanley here. Like I like my water a certain way, like it has to be filled up with ice and then you add the water so that it’ll be cold all day. Just a hydration hack there for me, for those who love ice cold water, because I know everybody doesn’t like that. But my husband will like bring that up to me, especially if I forget, because who wants to go up and down the stairs? So just little reminders, like my husband, even though he’s the cook, so like he’s always brought me food, but like him like bringing me food continuously, because I forget to eat. Right. And so I’m like feeding this baby and I’m like, oh, you’re getting all the food. And I have had like a piece of toast today.
Chanté Perryman:
I’m going to need for you to hydrate, eat, and sleep. Yeah. There you go. Now, speaking of sleep, what are some effective sleep strategies for parents of newborns, especially when sleep when the baby sleep isn’t possible?
Rikki Jenkins:
Go ahead, Sara.
Sara Ailshire:
Oh my god, we was part of K’s. We were like, we’ll take turns. We’ll take one of us, we’ll get up in the next one. No. That was a disaster after day two. I was like, absolutely not. So we slept in shifts. And in the early days that… made a huge difference. I’m a bit more of a night owl than my husband is. So I would take the first shift basically till four and then he would take the second shift. And that allowed us both. From very early on, like, we were both getting, like, five, six hours of sleep at a time, which, like… It doesn’t sound like a lot, but like if you’re talking to a newly postpartum person, they’re like, that sounds fake because that’s like huge stretches of time. Right. But yeah, shift sleeping was. Really saved us. I think I got it from my, um, my Reddit pregnancy group because, yeah, we really wanted to be fair, you know, and that ended up being what worked for us that played to our strengths. You know, I mean, I’m a night owl and he’s a morning person, so it helped.
Chanté Perryman:
Rikki how about you? Now that you have two. So, you know, Sara just has one, but you have two.
Rikki Jenkins:
Well, thank goodness my oldest eventually became a good sleeper because she was an awful sleeper as a baby. So she sleeps pretty much through the night almost still. She’ll crawl into bed with us sometimes. Um, but sleep. Yeah. I’m still trying to figure it out. Seven months. But yeah, it’s like there will be some days because yes, newborn, but I’m talking about even later on, like my baby still likes to wake up every couple of hours to nurse. And so, yes, five hours sounds like a dream to sleep. But if I have days where I’m like, I’m really tired, like here, take the baby. Like my husband will do that so that I can get stretches of sleep. And again, we’re really lucky because we get to work from home. And so it doesn’t really matter when that nap is taken, right? Like we can take the nap during the day, but the sleep when the baby sleeps. I know the intention behind that. However. Sometimes we don’t want to sleep or sometimes like for me, I’m introverted. So I love alone time. And so I love to be able to like, you know, go and read a book or go and watch a show really quick to like refill my cup. That’s how like I feel replenished. If I’m sleeping when the baby sleeps, that means I’m waking up when the baby’s waking up and I have zero time for myself. Sleep is a big topic. I also realized that like not everyone has the same schedule. And so nighttime doesn’t have to necessarily be nighttime because what if you, you know, work graveyard, then your daytime could be your nighttime. Like it doesn’t, we don’t have to be so strict on our standards of like, oh, my kid goes to sleep at 7 p.m. And that’s their strict bedtime. Like it’s fine if their bedtime is 10 o’clock. Like for a long time, our bedtime was midnight because that’s when Amor would have her first stretch of sleep and she’d wake up around like four or five. And just also like be ready for change or, you know, try to take care of yourself as much as you can, because there was a period of time.Sara, how old is your baby? Because I don’t want to discourage you.
Sara Ailshire:
Just turned five months.
Rikki Jenkins:
Okay.
Chanté Perryman:
So she just passed the sleep regression?
Sara Ailshire:
Yeah. We have done nothing to do this she’s always slept fairly well it’s her temperament and her nature like we did zero things to do this this is totally just like luck of the draw but again we did nothing this is just what she was like.
Rikki Jenkins:
Yeah, because all of that is what discourages you it’s like “Oh I’m using this and this helped for my baby,” and it’s like “No, my baby was sleeping she was sleeping amazing and all the way up to like four and a half.” And then it switched. Like we were so spoiled. Like she was sleeping like five to six hours a night, sometimes longer. And then she switched four months sleep regression. And ever since she’s been waking up every two to three hours. Sometimes I’ll get lucky with four. Some folks are 100% sleep training. Other folks are not. I’m definitely in the not only because. I don’t feel like we can do anything to change that. I tried with my first. I tried literally everything you can think of. And I just realized, hey, like I, she’s just not sleeping. That’s just not the time you’re on right now.
Chanté Perryman:
As the one who loves sleep, the shift sleeping, that’s a definite plus. Because like you say, you’re getting those like, even if I’m just getting three to four hours, it’s better than broken up sleep. And if you can have someone come over to support you, even if it’s like a postpartum doula, your mom, friend, cousin, like neighbor down the street, whoever, to someone to like watch the baby while you just get some dedicated sleep time. And then like, if you are nursing, just have them bring the baby to you. And then they take the baby back to sleep.
Rikki Jenkins:
Yeah.
Chanté Perryman:
Sleep is important. I don’t do a lot of like electronic or TV time for my kids. But. When I need a nap. Let’s see what new movie is out.
Rikki Jenkins:
Yes.
Chanté Perryman:
Because then that means I have like two hours of dedicated sleep. And then my oldest, she’s 13. So she’s old enough that like in my youngest, he’s like almost two. But it’s something if he wakes up or he needs something, she can still help out with him. And so then that means that I can still just get a two hour nap. So let’s talk a little bit about the early signs of postpartum depression or anxiety and what new parents should be aware of.
Sara Ailshire:
So I’ve had some experiences with anxiety in the past. And I thought, OK, I should just kind of keep an eye out. So even before the baby was born, I talked to my husband about it. And we talked to our midwife. And we’re sort of asking her what to look out for, what signs. There’s a lot of things that I was kind of familiar with already through work. But knowing the signs and then living it was a very different thing. For me, one of the first signs that things were going downhill was I wasn’t showering. I’m one of those people, I really like to shower every day. Like really, really, really like that’s really important to me. And like I was just kind of like that slip. The other thing too was I was expecting maybe postpartum depression. I wasn’t ready for postpartum anxiety. I would just start to kind of get in my head that I was just thinking like, oh, like I haven’t done this. And like, is this something that I wasn’t doing where like. Pictures, like, you know, like, certain things, like, dressing the baby a certain way, whatever, and… It sounds kind of silly, but those for me were the early signs, things that I normally wouldn’t think about. We’re kind of like creeping in. And then very soon I was holding the baby and crying about how I’ve ruined her life by being her mother. And I was like, we need we need some medication. Like this is not the baby blues. That’s the thing, too. Like, oh, maybe it’s the baby blues. Like hormones are going wild right now. Like all sorts of things are happening. I was expecting postpartum depression. And for me, like falling behind on self-care things was that. But postpartum anxiety, I wasn’t afraid someone was going to steal the baby or anything. But I just became very fearful about like ruining her life, which was weird. But that was what to me was like, oh, this is not just like one. It’s maybe combo.
Rikki Jenkins:
Yeah, that’s absolutely valid. I’m comparing both of my experiences because with my first, I didn’t I didn’t know any of this. Right. Like I didn’t know what both me and my partner, we didn’t know. And so I would just have bouts of crying or just. Confusion and I just didn’t know. And then you add not sleeping on top of that. So like you’re really in it, right? I didn’t get help for my postpartum depression with my first until four years later. If you don’t get it treated, you can still absolutely suffer from postpartum depression years later. I was just in my head. I was just like, I don’t, I don’t know. No one was really asking. I had one person check in and they were like, oh, I want to make sure you don’t have postpartum depression. And I’m like, what does that mean? What does that mean? I’m like, yeah, no, I don’t. And so lots of anxiety. I would be checking on her. And I know like it’s a normal thing to like check on your baby. But I was having, you know, thoughts. Then we lived up three flights of stairs. And so like going down the stairs with her was very hard. Going to the grocery store. I had so much anxiety. But this time, knowing the signs, I was like, okay, I got this. Like, it’s totally fine. Like, and then boom, postpartum rage. So I was just like, okay, anxiety. No, not really. A little bit. But depression, I don’t really. But the rage, I was just like not prepared for because that showed up like weeks later. It just came from like feeling overwhelmed and just, you know, juggling all the things because life doesn’t stop just because you had a baby. Especially when you have like older, like my oldest, she’s in cheer and, you know, doing all the things. And so when things are not in order, I’m just like, what’s going on? And I can’t handle change very well when I’m in that like postpartum rage. So same. I was just like, okay, like me blowing up on my husband. I need to get some type of help, you know, some type of medication to help with this because I feel out of control.
Sara Ailshire:
I think it’s totally different. My daughter was born with a tooth. And the rules, I think sometimes like the information we have is so great. Like, you know, I’m a researcher. Like, I love information. I love knowing things. Sometimes you can do too many things. You know, like just some of like my Google search history. Was wild in the early days because like I’d see anything I’m like what is this and of course you know like Dr. Google comes up with some you know something that’s very intense it’s like no babies are just kind of weird to do weird baby things like sometimes babies are born with a tooth because they’re just their tooth was excited I don’t know like she’s just like There’s help, there’s support, there’s so much out there. So even if something is going on, like I will have support. I’ll have information. I can figure out what to do. I would try and kind of talk myself off the ledge. But yeah, my Google, I was like, I would like wake up and be like, are you breathing? I would like stare at her. Sometimes I still do, you know, even with meds and stuff. Like it’s, you know, it’s not like a perfect, like I’m never anxious again. I’m not sure how it is for you, but.
Rikki Jenkins:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s definitely an ongoing thing. And I’m glad you pointed that out because it’s not like, oh, this I’m fixed and I’m perfect now. Like, no, it’s a it’s experience and it’s not linear. Like, you know, you have up and down and you’ll be feeling really, really good at one point. And then the next, you know, and my friend slash doula is a mental health therapist. And one of the things that she said was, you know, a lot of times we focus so much on like the first couple of months that we forget about, you know, birthing people and families after that because it’s like, oh, yeah, you got it. All right. But she said a lot of times the spike happens between seven to nine months postpartum. The support should never stop. Right. You know, people just expect that you are well acclimated now. Right. And so we we don’t get that support anymore when it’s like, oh, no, this is the time we actually need it again.
Chanté Perryman:
We really need it. So. Michael’s third point is for for partners that I think I think this is the stat. I might have to check. I think this is the stat that like if the mother or the birthing person experiences postpartum depression, there’s a 50 percent chance that the support person father will experience it also. And so that’s one thing that I really try to point out, like in the childbirth class is like, let’s not just read over this like, yeah, I got it. Like, no, this is important. And it’s important for both of you to understand the warning signs, the symptoms. What does that look like? Because if the two of you are. In this home together. The two of you are raising this baby. The two of you know each other the most. And so it’s going to take the two of you to communicate to be like, you just went off on me. Over ketchup being on the counter. You know, like it could just literally be something so small as that. And you’re like. I did just go off on you because there’s like, and so that could be like the first signs of something. And just to always say, like, make sure that you have your support system lined up before the baby gets here. And even if you need to add to your support system after the baby gets here and like have trusted people in your corner. Like you said, Rikki, like your friend. I don’t think I would phrase it like just checking to make sure you don’t have postpartum depression.
Rikki Jenkins:
But like, yeah, like just like have a conversation.
Chanté Perryman:
Right. Like, let’s have a conversation. But like, how are you feeling? And like, let’s be honest in our feelings and not just be like, yeah, I’m okay. Not sleeping well, but I’m making it like, no, like, I don’t feel good.
Rikki Jenkins:
Yeah.
Chanté Perryman:
I’m having thoughts. Like, yeah.
Rikki Jenkins:
And I think that’s important that you bring up partners because like with our first baby, like our birth was pretty traumatic and everyone disregards the partner. Well, I shouldn’t say everyone, but he was completely disregarded even from the start of our pregnancy. I remember like the nurse coming in and he like would ask questions and she looked at him and was like, you already did your job. Essentially just sit back and be quiet. That is like his first experience. So it’s like, okay, you’re already taking power that he has as a father, you know, as a parent as well from him. And so this time it was really beautiful because I realized that he had never been asked about his side of the birth story. So one of the things that we did at our prenatals with our doula, she asked him, she said, And tell me your story, tell me your birth story, right? And I’ve never heard it from his mouth. We both were like teary eyed, like, and I was just like, oh my goodness. Like I’ve been thinking, you know, we were only asked about our birth story as the birthing person, but literally no one asked him. Like, and it’s been seven years. I believe that we both experienced postpartum depression with our first. And that’s one of the things that I asked for. Like, I was like, make sure he sleeps when I’m in labor, like take shifts because he will, he’ll stay up for 72 hours if he had to, right? And I’m like, that didn’t work out so well the first time, like make sure that we’re both supported. And so setting that up was really instrumental this time.
Sara Ailshire:
Yeah, absolutely. Our doula, Elaine, she, when we had our postpartum visit, she did kind of like what yours did, like asking both sides of the story and asking him to recount things. You know, when you’re in labor land, I think sometimes things kind of like fall by the wayside. It was really, I was so grateful to her for kind of doula-ing him into parenthood and then. Hearing his side of the story, I was like, oh, wow, I was there. But like, that’s really interesting. I remember that. I didn’t see that, you know, so.
Chanté Perryman:
Well, thank you all for both sharing about your experience with postpartum depression and anxiety, because it is a very important topic. I don’t like it when people are like, so how are you postpartum? They make postpartum part of postpartum depression. It’s like, no, it’s two different things. Postpartum depression is a clinical diagnosis. And then being postpartum is a transition of me in my fourth trimester. For those who are listening, like definitely if you feel like you’re experiencing some postpartum depression, anxiety, rage, or psychosis, please reach out to someone, your medical provider, and maybe have that conversation if medication is needed or if there are other alternatives for you. For our last like little topic, because we’re here at the end of our discussion, what’s the best advice for navigating the early days that don’t go as planned with flexibility and self-compassion? We kind of talked about this a little bit, but you know, if things don’t go as planned, how are you still like showing compassion and giving yourself grace?
Rikki Jenkins:
Setting yourself up as much as possible. I know we talked about like having different setups that I guess everyone should have. Like we talked about like having a three-tiered rolling cart packed with all the things, snacks and diapers and your pump, your pump parts, having it all right there at the bedside was you know, instrumental in like me not having to find everything and everything just being right there and having things that bring you comfort. So for me, it was like my little blanket. I know I sound like I’m seven years old, but a fluffy blanket and slippers. My partner was like, you have to have slippers for your feet so that when you walk to the bathroom, it’s not cold. And so having those things like, well, for me, I kind of felt like a blob postpartum, like your body is just doing things and it’s all over. So I, you know, invested in like really comfy, but cute, like postpartum clothes. And even though you’re topless for most of the time, but I had really cute shorts on. Comfy and some sometimes you can splurge on like so for me the I think I brought this up but the brand diapers of rail, rail I don’t know how how to say it but those were like top tier like I had tried different brands and it just wasn’t doing it for me so maybe um investing a little bit more into like comfort for sure.
Chanté Perryman:
Yeah I love that you mentioned your blanket because when we were talking earlier this year and I was like we were talking about bras or something nursing bras yeah I was oh I said Rikki I want a new robe and you gave me the brand name and then I ended up buying bras from there too but when you mentioned your blanket I was like yes I got that robe and it’s like that’s what I put on and it’s just like it’s, it’s just the comfort and the most amazing feeling. And you’re like, oh, yeah. So, yeah, I get you. Sara, how about you?
Sara Ailshire:
Yeah, I tried to make the muslin blankets work as a nursing cover. And a friend of my husband’s, a family friend was like, oh, I had this thing. And she described her nursing cover, and I was able to find one. And. It’s great. And I was so glad that I didn’t just try to make it work. Like I invested in a couple of things, you know. That were comfortable and felt good to use. And like, I was excited to use them. Same thing with like a baby. I baby wear and like finding like a baby wrap that like was both like beautiful and in my price range, because some of those things could be like real pricey. Um, yeah. But the other thing too, I think about… You know, I think about my mother. My mother, it’s totally less stories about, like, her postpartum period, her parenthood. And sometimes she’ll talk about how she has felt bad about something that happened. You know, I rolled off the bed. And she’s still, like, I’m 34 years old. She still feels so terrible. And I think about it, I’m like. Mom, like. It wasn’t your fault. Like I was a baby. Babies do things, you know? And I think about that sometimes. And I’m like, what will my daughter, what will my child think? Or like in pictures, sometimes like your body has changed so much. If you are a birthing person, there’s another person’s DNA like in your body forever. Like you’re just a different being. And even if you’re not a birthing person, like parenthood radically changes you. Like your experiences are different and your body may change in response. You know, I’ll see pictures and I’m like, but I’m like, you know what? How would she look at me? Like, could I imagine like myself through her eyes? You know, and I also try to imagine like myself, like my mother, like, you know, I wouldn’t want her to feel guilty or bad. Like, I’m very proud of her. I think she did an amazing job. I try to kind of like practice that self-compassion, even if I have to kind of like role play as somebody else. It’s really easy to just like be down on yourself, be negative. Everyone else is doing things. People are like lifting weights and running marathons and I’m just kind of like a sweatpants person now. But it’s like, you know, take the picture. Take the picture, have compassion for yourself. And if you can’t have compassion for yourself, imagine your child is a new parent. How would you want people to talk to them? If you can’t do it for yourself, do it for them. Pretend. You know what I mean? And also the other thing too I think about is like we oftentimes like I’m going through postpartum care loss like no one’s business right now. And I’m like, obviously you can see it. No one can see it. Right. Remembering that you’re your own worst critic, that these things are so glaring to you and other people don’t see it. It’s not that big of a deal. It’s not that obvious. You know, things that are such a problem to you are not from you.
Rikki Jenkins:
I remember Sara posted when we were poking fun because Sara posted a picture of her in like jeans and we were like.
Chanté Perryman:
What are you amazing? And what are jeans? I was like, you’re an amazing mom. How do you have jeans on right now? I haven’t worn jeans since like eight years. Since 2019, 18, pre-COVID, you know. And it was like, oh, my gosh, you’re so beautiful. Like, you’re perfect. You’re an amazing mom. And I love that because these are the thoughts that other people have about us, right? And we got all of that from one picture. But to hear the other side of, like, I didn’t feel like myself. And we were like, you’re killing it, girl.
Sara Ailshire:
No, right. It’s the same. Like everyone, you, you see other people so kindly, right? It’s so easy to see other people kindly and be generous towards other people. And it’s like, why can’t we do that for ourselves? So I thought, like, I mean, yeah, I see photos of myself. I look like a thumb personally to me and my husband, my mom’s like, oh, that’s such a beautiful picture. So it’s like, okay, like just. It’s hard, though. It’s hard. I say all this stuff, and it’s not, I still will go downstairs and probably, like, struggle or feel weird about something when we’re done. Like, it’s an ongoing process. And being kind to yourself and forgiving yourself is, like, I think something we have to work on over a lifetime. And this postpartum period is, like, a really, I don’t know, like, a crucible of that. I don’t know how it is for you all. But the comfy stuff like that also matters so much.
Rikki Jenkins:
Yeah. I want to plug one last thing. So Chanté a few years ago gave me like a gift that keeps on giving and it’s this and I still have it on my like my desk and it’s every day it’s like a new affirmation I forgot the podcast and you can’t see, but it’s called Today’s the Day Inspirational Quotes. And I still use it like because I forget what I read every day. So all of this is like, oh, so nice. This is new to me, even though I read it last year. Having little reminders like that is always, because every day it’s like, oh, I love this. I receive this. And it’s always on time. So just a little thing there.
Chanté Perryman:
The gift that keeps on giving. Well, thank you both for joining me today for the EBB team podcast takeover on postpartum and newborns and all the things. Well, thank you all for listening. And Rebecca will be back next week. And thanks for joining us today. Bye.
Rikki Jenkins:
Bye.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker:
Today’s podcast episode was brought to you by the online workshops for birth professionals taught by Evidence Based Birth® instructors. We have an amazing group of EBB Instructors from around the world who can provide you with live, interactive, continuing education workshops that are fully online. We designed Savvy Birth Pro workshops to help birth professionals who are feeling stressed by the limitations of the healthcare system. Our instructors also teach the popular Comfort Measures for Birth Professionals and Labor and Delivery Nurses workshop. If you are a nurse or birth professional who wants instruction in massage, upright birthing positions, acupressure for pain relief, and more, you will love the Comfort Measures workshop. Visit ebbirth.com/events to find a list of upcoming online workshops.
